a.n.other
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Marl Pits Redevelopment.I was reading the back page of this week's Rossendale Free Press.
It reports that the redevelopment of Marl Pits is a step closer.
I think it would be great for your club. 
One of those all-weather running tracks and better facilities might help get even more members.
What thinks you?
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DanDruff
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A step closer to What ?.
I think by the time we have new facilities, most of us will not be fit run anyway.Unless we run on the fells which does seem easier.
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dnf
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It's the next generation you goda be thinking about Dan, thats partly why the present membership is spending time and energy on doing UKA coaching courses. Its great to see our juniors doing so well even with our present facilities , but to retain them as Harriers we really need to upgrade the track and infrastructure .
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Rod the Plod
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I'm all in favour of re-development, god knows it is long, long overdue. My only concern is where the club will stand once the work has all taken place.
At the moment we have a club house and our own weight room, we are financially sound and the general spirit about the club is excellent. What will happen in this great utopia of the Sports Village? Will we have any control over the facilities? How much will it cost to train on the track?
The juggernaut seems to be gathering apace, I am not the one trying to stop it but it would be good to know what lies ahead.
The other question I would ask is do we need or deserve the new track?
I went to the first in the Chorley 4 mile series on Wednesday night and was one of only two Rossendale runners, the other being Emma Flanagan.
Going back a few years there would have been at least a dozen of us there. Where was everyone else - quite a few were running a fell race.
Over the summer months Jon Ferguson usually holds track sessions. They are very, very hard sessions and you know you have been through the mill when it has finished. If we get half a dozen doing these sessions we are doing well. Where is everyone else? On the fells of course.
Now, I agree that a run up to Liver Hill, Waugh's Well, Whittle Pike or wherever is much more scenic and socially engaging than 5 X 1000 metres or any other interval session on our delapidated track. But, will it help you to run faster? Maybe you don't want to run faster and are happy to trundle up the hills and down the dales. It is noticeable that the winter sessons involving fartlek, threshold, muster runs and Kenyan Hills get everyone running hard and I'm sure the standard of fitness improves amongst the groups.
Will having a new track stop these members running on the fells? I very much doubt it. Running on a tartan track is just as hard as a cinder track (unless it's waterlogged).
It may or may not keep some of the younger members. Whilst we have lost a few to Blackburn the biggest dropout rate is through youngsters quitting the sport as they find other interests. It will certainly help in the winter as the track will be usable 12 months a year instead of 12 weeks a year.
This may be a controversial view but some of those who have left for new pastures have perhaps done it because they don't want to run on the fells and are more interested in the road or track. Did they feel pressured into running the fells and so decided whilst there may be a different pressure at Blackburn it was a more welcome pressure.
I haven't spoken to any of those who left so this is just a suggestion.I look foward to the opinions of others on the subject.
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dnf
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Did Flower Scar meself on wens. Rod ,13 Harriers turned up for that .The Harriers has always been a fell running club and we do do hill reps and muster runs but on the tops. Like I said, this new facility will be for a future generation so the club may turn more to the roads.
As for Chorley 4mile ,look at the numbers overall ,I think they'll be well down in number and quality on 10 years past, my best was 21.53 for 73rd place. I think that was in 1995.
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Hugh Jarse
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| dnf wrote: | Did Flower Scar meself on wens. Rod ,13 Harriers turned up for that .The Harriers has always been a fell running club and we do do hill reps and muster runs but on the tops. Like I said, this new facility will be for a future generation so the club may turn more to the roads.
As for Chorley 4mile ,look at the numbers overall ,I think they'll be well down in number and quality on 10 years past, my best was 21.53 for 73rd place. I think that was in 1995. |
You teed me up nicely for this one Richard.
When you say the Harriers has always been a fell club, whilst I understand what you mean, if you refer to the club constitution then you couldn't be more wrong. Presumably, you mean the past runners of the 80's who represented the club so admirably on the fells, and reference to the past winners of The Calderdale, shows what a stranglehold the club had on that event at the time.
That said, the club constitution states that it will promote fell,cross country and road running, but it doesn't state nor imply any hiearchy of importance. It goes further in stating that in so doing, it will treat all members equally and fairly.
I believe it fails in this regard at present, with an off road bias, but having said that, I'm equally sure that it isn't deliberate, it's just a case of people gravitating to what they prefer.
Having acknowledged the past glories of the club on the fells, it would be wrong to leave it there. The club boasts a former National Cross Country champion, along with current members who've performed and continue to perform with great distinction on the roads, especially at Half Marathon and Full marathon distance, along with a set of younger members who will ensure the club goes from strength to strength in the future.
In that regard then, the club constitution has it spot on, in recognising equally the three different codes and whilst there is a clear preference for the fells by the majority of members, we're a running club, not a fell running club.
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Rod the Plod
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I agree with you totally Richard regarding the Chorley series, however, this goes across the board as you could look at any race from across the country and see how standards have fallen, although I'm not sure the numbers have fallen markedly. I have some old result and will check that out.
When I was in my hey day I was an also ran but if I was to run those times today I would be well up the field. I know it is hard to judge times on the fells but I would suggest the standards are lower from ten or 20 years ago. I would suggest tha whilst many want to partake of an event they are not prepared to push themselves physically as much as those of yesteryear. Perhaps this is the result of too much television, wrong foods or some other social reason that we often hear about. It's easy to go for a jog but to really push yourself to improve substantially takes a lot more effort.
Look at my mate Hugh; he started out at 16 stones and 18 months later, through sheer hard work and bloody mindedness he had run a 2.54 marathon. That takes hard work that not many people these days would be prepared to put up with.
One of the aims of the London Marathon was to raise the standard of marathon running in the UK. As anyone can tesify it has had totally the opposite effect even though it has encouraged many hundreds of thousands of people who would never have regarded themselves as runners to don their trainers and take part in events up and down the country.
It is great to see the number of Rossendale vests at any race and you may wll be right that a new track might persuade future runners to move to Bacup Rd rather than Liver Hill. Personally I doubt it for the reasons I stated earlier. I know you do intervals on the fells but I bet there are nowhere near the numbers doing them that we have in the winter.
Everyone makes their own decisions about what they want to do in their running and I fully respect that but as Hugh pointed out we are a running club and I still think that some get pushed into fell running and go along with it and treat it as a social occasion rather than an athletic occasion leading to competition.
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Lefty
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Re the redevelopment of Marl Pits, your club has and is involved totally with the redevelopment plan, we were in there with our ideas and views right from the start and our input and ideas have so far been listened to and implemented. There is no doubt that that we will only benefit from the plans put forward with indoor training facilities, club room all weather track, storage facilties and new clean and effective showers and changing rooms.The facilty will be managed not by Rossendale Borough Council or the Leisure Trust but by ourselves and the other prime users ie Rossendale afc, Rossendale Rugby Club and Rossendale United plus the Rossendale Leisure Trust......that is we get to say how the place is run, we will be part of and have equal voice on the management board and how it is financed and managed.What you have read in the paper is a part of what is going on behind the scenes where we are as a club fully involved. The old Marl Pits is dirty unsafe and well past its sell by date. The new facilty will benefit everyone,should not cost anyone as an individual any more money and we should do everything we can to make sure it happens.If you want to know more about this or any other subject speak to a cllud official or better still get involved and get yourself on the committee.....Lets hear you views personnally
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Rod the Plod
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Graham, it's good to know that everything is going ahead and that you are so positive about the plans, I agree that something desperately needs doing and it can'tcome qickly enough.
The press reports, whilst welcome, do not in my view, tell us much about what our role we will we play and what facilities will be available to us. Could I suggest that details be made available on the club website so that everyone is kept aware.
As a former committee member I am well aware of the hard work that goes in, particularly from yourself and Steve Duxbury, I just think it would be better from the membership's perspective if more information was available.
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Unlucky Alf
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Does Rossendale Harriers deserve a new track? Let's be clear about this; the proposed development at Marl Pits, which would include a new 8 lane synthetic track, would be for the people of Rossendale and the northwest. The Harriers would use it and as stakeholders would help to manage the site. This represents a fantastic opportunity to build a facility, with multiple sports on site, all in a setting that would be the envy of every borough in the area. Can we afford to be that selfish that we would deny future generations this opportunity?
As for Hugh, he's read he constitution but does he understand it? Who does he think the club is? The members of course. So if he thinks he and the road running fraternity aren't catered for maybe he should get off his ample backside and do something about it. Organise a training weekend or even a road race. Or it is easier to just moan about things and hope that others might do it for him?
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a.n.other
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| Unlucky Alf wrote: | | Let's be clear about this; the proposed development at Marl Pits, which would include a new 8 lane synthetic track, would be for the people of Rossendale and the northwest. |
That's exactly what the idea of the old track was. It was used by the people of Rossendale and beyond - Until it became unsafe, etc, etc.
I would love Rossendale to have first class athletic facilities.
It just totally bugs me to the point of total disbelief has 'stupid' amounts of money can be found for other not so worthwhile "community" projects.
For example, do you know what the total budget for the Halo contraption overlooking Haskingden was? 
It was over £500,000 - Yes half a million quid! - Sandalous! 
That would have probably been enough to fix the showers in your clubhouse for starters. 
I look forward to hearing more about and then seeing long overdue progress of the project.
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dnf
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The people of Rossendale and beyond are using our present facility in increasing numbers at the moment .I attended the 'monday night' training group last night ,there were 25+ enthusiastic adults, some from outside the area 'having a go' . I can see a time when with upgraded infrastructure and our evermore qualified coaching staff the club could be used most nights of the week.
Regarding the present clubhouse a dangerous structural flaw seems to have developed on the trackside facing part ,I think it needs immediate attention.
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Hugh Jarse
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| Unlucky Alf wrote: | Does Rossendale Harriers deserve a new track? Let's be clear about this; the proposed development at Marl Pits, which would include a new 8 lane synthetic track, would be for the people of Rossendale and the northwest. The Harriers would use it and as stakeholders would help to manage the site. This represents a fantastic opportunity to build a facility, with multiple sports on site, all in a setting that would be the envy of every borough in the area. Can we afford to be that selfish that we would deny future generations this opportunity?
As for Hugh, he's read he constitution but does he understand it? Who does he think the club is? The members of course. So if he thinks he and the road running fraternity aren't catered for maybe he should get off his ample backside and do something about it. Organise a training weekend or even a road race. Or it is easier to just moan about things and hope that others might do it for him? |
Thanks for your response.
New track ? Bring it on. Sooner the better.
A few comments regarding the constitution. Fully understand who the club is. The thing is, being predominantly a road runner, I also recognised that there was a road section within that membership, and that they’d paid their subs as well. However, the benefit of this exchange is now others are becoming aware that there is a road section and that these members of the club, who like me are predominantly road runners, are under the constitution of the club as it stands at present, entitled to the same treatment, coverage and benefits as their colleagues who prefer running off the road. I don’t think they receive that at present and interestingly, nobody disagreed with my earlier post. ( Is 26.2 worth a mention ?) which made the same point.
Couple of points regarding active participation in the club. Whilst I suspect the question in your last sentence is rhetorical, I’ll answer it anyway. Yes, it is easy to sit back and let others do everything, but I hardly think seeking redress under the club’s own constitution constitutes moaning. Also there’s nothing in the constitution as it stands at present which requires anything other than paying £20 for a member to be treated in accordance with that constitution. All it says is that if you pay your money, this what you can expect. I didn’t write it, I’m just pointing out what it says and if you think the road runners do get the same treatment, then tell me I’m wrong. Interestingly, there are many off road members who like me exercise their prerogative to remain on their ‘Hugh’s’
( ample and less so) and yet get better treatment, again in my opinion.
The whole purpose of a forum is to act as a platform for opinion. I’m simply expressing mine. If this exchange and the notoriety it attracts acts as a catalyst for change, then I’ll have achieved my aim which was nothing other than all members being treated equally.
Finally, you’ll note I haven’t published any of my gripes. Although you may doubt this, I have done so in order to spare anyone becoming embarrassed, because as I said earlier, I have no doubt whatsoever that there is no intended bias one way or the other, it’s simply that people gravitate to what they prefer. Happy to provide the detail. If you want it just ask for it off-line. Away this week with work, so I won’t be at the club.
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Unlucky Alf
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Hugh Jarse wrote,
"Also there’s nothing in the constitution as it stands at present which requires anything other than paying £20 for a member to be treated in accordance with that constitution. All it says is that if you pay your money, this what you can expect. I didn’t write it, I’m just pointing out what it says and if you think the road runners do get the same treatment, then tell me I’m wrong.
Easy, you're wrong. Not everyone gets a mention, just the notable performances. I can remember hearing and reading about successes and achievements on the road, fell, country and track. Surely we don't expect everyone's race results to be recorded and celebrated? We'd be there all night!
What do you expect for your £20.00? A gold star every time you lace up your running shoes? Come on.
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Rod the Plod
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Let me make it clear that I FULLY SUPPORT the construction of a new track. My question; 'Do we deserve a new track?' was partially intended to start a debate and obviously it has.
I like nothing better than to see the crowds flocking to Marl Pits. I remember not that long ago when there was barely one changing room filled on club nights. These days I struggle to get MY place in MY room it gets that crowded  . Perhaps when the new track is opened we can get Ron Hill to open it and run on it as I remember reading in his autobiography how he was enticed to the current one with the juicy titbit that it was an all weather track. At the time he ran in barefeet and was aghast to discover the real make up of it.
Hopefully the club will continue to thrive, it can only be good for the community as a whole.
I agree with Alf that only notable performances should be recorded, however I would refer the honourable gentleman to the 26.2 thread regarding the lack of recognition given to John Lavelle following his club championship success. This doesn't look to me like equality.
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Lefty
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John Lavelle I think would be the first to say that he got the recognition he rightly deserved, we purposely had a presentation of the road championship awards at the rugby club in February. Jon Ferguson stood up and did his bit to offer congrats to everyone who competed in the 2007 road champs as did myself, it was well advertised but sadly poorley attended by our increasingly active road section.
It saddens me to think that people feel excluded due the the particular discipline they chose to take part in. I can assure everyone that it is certainly not an active club policy to favour one section over another but obviously there is a perceived problem which we should address. Any ideas let us know. Shame that Rod is no longer on the committe, he has been a good voice for the membership in the past and hopefully in the future.Perhaps he could be persuaded to serve again in the future.
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Hugh Jarse
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| Lefty wrote: | John Lavelle I think would be the first to say that he got the recognition he rightly deserved, we purposely had a presentation of the road championship awards at the rugby club in February. Jon Ferguson stood up and did his bit to offer congrats to everyone who competed in the 2007 road champs as did myself, it was well advertised but sadly poorley attended by our increasingly active road section.
It saddens me to think that people feel excluded due the the particular discipline they chose to take part in. I can assure everyone that it is certainly not an active club policy to favour one section over another but obviously there is a perceived problem which we should address. Any ideas let us know. Shame that Rod is no longer on the committe, he has been a good voice for the membership in the past and hopefully in the future.Perhaps he could be persuaded to serve again in the future. |
When I see you Graham, i'll right your misconceptions about the presentation. Again, out of respect to you and to not cause embarrassment, I'll take it off line.
I fully believe you when you assert that the there is no intended bias. I've said before, I don't think it's deliberate.
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Unlucky Alf
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I fully believe you when you assert that the there is no intHugh Jarse wrote, "I fully believe you when you assert that the there is no intended bias. I've said before, I don't think it's deliberate."
What's to be done then? Speak up for the roadies!
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dnf
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In this debate ,it does concern me the way it seems to be perceived as either your a 'roadie' or offroader. Theres a danger were going to end up with two camps with no common ground. Club members like myself don't wish to be pigeon-holed into either camp. Although its true I prefer fellraces i've turned out for the last 3hree 12 stages and ran more 10ks than most. On the other hand Jon Fergy ran some local fell races last year and did very well. The 'road' runner who inadvertently is one of the topics of this debate John Lavelle is away this weekend doing Goat Fell fellrace in Scotland along with 4? other Harriers.
As they say 'at the end of the day' people can do what events suits them.Out of interest I was talking to prolific race organizer Andy O'Sullivan not long ago, his opinion was he's looking at more off-road events because its less hassle from 'authorities'.
As for Hugh talking to Lefty about the presentation , please leave the guy alone. Everyones problems ends up on Lefty's table and I really think the guy deserves a medal not criticism .
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a.n.other
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| dnf wrote: | | As for Hugh talking to Lefty about the presentation , please leave the guy alone. Everyones problems ends up on Lefty's table and I really think the guy deserves a medal not criticism . |
Well said. {Thumbs Up}
I know of Graham and I read in this weeks Free Press that he's been a member for 40 years. With all the work he does, in my opinion, every single person in the club should look up to him.
I enjoy running and run 3 or 4 times a week. I'm over 40 and not really that good at running and I'm not a member of Rossendale Harriers, but was thinking of joining, so looked on the club website for info and found a link to this forum and joined here, etc, etc.
I'm sure that I'd turn out for Track, Road, Country or Fell to help the club.
Maybe I'm missing summot.
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divine
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| dnf wrote: | In this debate ,it does concern me the way it seems to be perceived as either your a 'roadie' or offroader. Theres a danger were going to end up with two camps with no common ground. Club members like myself don't wish to be pigeon-holed into either camp. Although its true I prefer fellraces i've turned out for the last 3hree 12 stages and ran more 10ks than most. On the other hand Jon Fergy ran some local fell races last year and did very well. The 'road' runner who inadvertently is one of the topics of this debate John Lavelle is away this weekend doing Goat Fell fellrace in Scotland along with 4? other Harriers.
As they say 'at the end of the day' people can do what events suits them.Out of interest I was talking to prolific race organizer Andy O'Sullivan not long ago, his opinion was he's looking at more off-road events because its less hassle from 'authorities'.
As for Hugh talking to Lefty about the presentation , please leave the guy alone. Everyones problems ends up on Lefty's table and I really think the guy deserves a medal not criticism . |
well said dicky! what's wrong with a bit of both?  i do mean in running terms
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Rod the Plod
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'As for Hugh talking to Lefty about the presentation , please leave the guy alone. Everyones problems ends up on Lefty's table and I really think the guy deserves a medal not criticism .'
I don't think anyone is criticising Lefty, anyone who has been a member for any length of time knows the dedication he shows and hard work he puts in. Doesn't mean to say someone can't speak to him about something. I'm sure he would prefer a face to face than talking behind his back.
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Lefty
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My only concern is that we seem to have members that are disenchanted and as such would like to address that situation and I would welcome ideas from everone who has an opinion.Whether a forum of this type is right place to conduct our bussiness or not ? personally I think not, washing dirty clothes in public is bad news and we should get together to discuss.Our monthly meetings are always open to everyone or club officers are always there on club nights, hopefully they are there to help.
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Lefty
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Thanks to Greg for the phone call today and my apologies to John Lavelle.
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Rod the Plod
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Lefty. I don't think despite what you might read that there are members who are disenchanted. Perhaps that's the one downside of these forums in that opinions can be misconstrued.
Personally I don't, despite what I may have said, have any problems with anyone at the club. There are perhaps issues that could be addressed but in the main I think we have a good club which is well run thanks to the hard work put in by many people doing all sorts of tasks.
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Andy Grenfell
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I would call myself a ‘fell runner’ now, in that I specialise my training for fell races. However, being a good fell runner does not mean that you only train on the hills – far from it. Living in the Calder Valley, and being coached by Graeme Woodward, I have come into contact / heard about the training of quite a few top class fell runners over the last year. You would be very mistaken to assume the likes of Carl Grey don’t use tracks!
If you want to compete at the top in fell running, you need to put in the speed work, on roads and the track. I can’t imagine the likes of Shaun Livsey and other Rossy fell stars in the 80s kept solely to the fells in training.
From a personal point of view, I think the arrival of the track is long overdue. In the summer, the track is a nice surface to train on, and it’s no worse off than all but one of the tracks in Kenya. However, in the winter (when most of the track work needs to be put in for fell/endurance runners) it is pretty much unusable. When I was at university in Manchester it used to sadden me to see large numbers of juniors using Traffords first class facility on a December evening and then imagine what the scene was 20 miles north – with kids who were just as deserving. While there are still masses of juniors at Rossy in the summer, it is always a waiting game to see how many ‘survive’ the winter.
RE: the comments about what discipline the club is. Obviously, I’ve only been at the club for 5 years, but from what I’ve heard, we’ve won just as much on the roads/track as on the fells. We boast a 3 times national winner, a national junior winning team and a national half marathon winning team for starters. I know for a fact, road and fell stars alike would have been busting out a sub 60 minute hilly ten mile run on a Tuesday night back in the day. As Rod says, it’s just a matter of pushing yourself to get to that extra level. I think Andy Buttery is a perfect example of this. He ran for 17 years, and never bettered his 37 min 10k PB. Then a couple of years ago he decided he was getting on a bit (sorry Andy!) and wanted to give running a real go. That summer he knocked his PB down to 35 mins, and the following March at Trafford had broken 34. Two years later he is on the verge of breaking 33 mins and has the strength to win races. The other relevant point, is he had to do much of this training on his own as to get to this level, as we did not have the facilities. Many Tuesday/Thursday winter nights he was on the synthetic track at Pendle – and some of his sessions sound epic!
I think the point is, we may not gravitate to one particular area more than others, but we are without doubt an endurance club. And an endurance club needs a decent track to progress.
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Rod the Plod
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I must admit I cringed whn I saw this thread had been resurrected but this is an excellent post from Andy. Well balanced on all sides and a lesson in history as well
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